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Re: Obfuscated Self
Brook Conner <email@example.com> wrote:
> "Michael Grant Wilson" <firstname.lastname@example.org> said:
> > email@example.com wrote:
> > > On the other hand, they would be a wonderful tool for an annual
> > > Obfuscated Self Contest. :-)
> > Not required. After C++, Self is already the most easily obfuscated
> > language on the planet.
> Oh yeah, right :-) You forgot Perl, Tcl, Postscript, and everyone's
> favorite, machine language that writes over itself.
**> On Fri, 22 Jul 94 00:05:23 EST, firstname.lastname@example.org (Jecel Mattos de
Assumpcao Jr.) said:
Jecel> This is a *very* important issue for me: my project will be a
Jecel> garanteed failure unless I can teach a number of people to
Jecel> program in its language ( as the first programming language to
Jecel> most people ).
Well, for our part, we're going to be looking at Self for teaching
novice programmers object-oriented programming. Compared to C++, I
think we have a win in syntax. Compared to Pascal, perhaps, but that's
some of the stuff we'll be looking it. I think the semantics of the
language will be much easier to teach. There's so much little kruft
that you don't have to worry about (memory allocation, numerical
overflow, VAR vs non-VAR parameters). Of course, this is all
I remember someone on this list a while back saying that Self would
make a wicked cool shell (you know, instead of csh or zsh or
somesuch). Of course, it takes a little bit more memory than csh to
run it... :-)
[ ... ]
Jecel> When I looked at Self, I saw at once that: Self = ODL + MPL,
Jecel> where ODL is Object Definition Language and MPL is Message
Jecel> Passing Language. The MPL is a slightly modified Smalltalk
Jecel> that is highly readable ( not as much as scripting languages,
Jecel> but handles nested expressions much better than those ). The
Jecel> ODL is the LISP-like ( | x <- .... y = ( | .. | .. ) | )
Jecel> kind of thing.
What do you think makes scripting languages more readable? Certainly,
UNIX-based scripting languages have historically been some of the most
obtuse languages on the planet. Hypertalk always struck me as easy to
read, but hard to write (I could never remember what the damn keywords
were, and kept thinking I could just use English and it might work --
of course it didn't -- I think the extreme readability combined with
what was actually a rather inflexible syntax was a poor match --
perhaps its a rule of thumb that a language should be as readable as
it is writable and vice versa -- Perl is often called a "write-only"
language, because even the programmer can't figure out what it was she
Jecel> The neat thing is that one or the other might be replaced by
Jecel> an equivalent notation and the whole would still be Self in
Jecel> a very real sense. And this has happened: in the user interface
Jecel> objects are defined graphically and code is practically limited
Jecel> to short MPL segments in boxes. The text-ODL is still there
Jecel> if you need it, of course, but except for defining inline blocks
Jecel> it is not really used for most common programming chores.
Yeah -- I think what bothers me about the UI though is that it isn't
as responsive as I'd like -- it is plenty fast, once you've grabbed on
an object and are moving it around. But just click on an object and
wait for _some_ response while the VM compiles the click response.
The same kind of thing goes for garbage collecting -- it is plenty
fast (beats the pants of Emacs) but I'd still rather see it in another
thread (with its own LWP where it could be scheduled at a lower
priority and possibly on another processor). Again, I'm just looking
Now, of course, Jecel's point about replacing the ODL with the
graphical boxes begs the question "Why not replace the MPL as well?"
This could be really cool in 3D: the objects are
things/vehicles/robots in the world. Open up access panels (slots) and
see the engines (methods) driving the object. Move some gears around,
reconnect some wires, and you've changed the object's method. Blocks
become little engine components -- by putting them in the right place
(i.e., lexical context) they do the right thing.
Jecel> If you have to face ".self" files, then I'll agree that there
Jecel> are less intemidating languages around. But the current ( and
Jecel> certainly even more so in the future ) implementation seems
Jecel> to me to allow simple, clean and powerful programming which
Jecel> I would not hesitate to show to novices.
Let's try this out and _prove_ it!